PIC Donna is not a Revelation

[meddow]

It’s kind of cool sitting back and seeing a good portion of Who fandom realise, that no, Catherine Tate is not going to be the end of the show, and yes, Donna really is quite excellent. On the other hand, a few things about the way people are realising this are bugging me – particularly when people go on about how much Donna has improved since The Runaway Bride.

Thing is:
1. Donna did not scream all the way through The Runaway Bride. She did do an awful lot of yelling throughout the first sixteen minutes (yes, I timed it) – however, yelling loudly is a perfectly valid response to being abducted by aliens while walking down the aisle on your wedding day and then being kidnapped by robot Santas and forced to jump out of a moving vehicle on a motorway.

2. The quiet contemplative Donna that we saw with her Grandfather in Partners in Crime, made two wonderful appearances in TRB. Firstly, at minute sixteen (i.e. at the quarter way though the episode point), in the rooftop scene, and then later in the final scene of the show. Quiet contemplative Donna is not a new invention for Partners in Crime. She already existed.

3. And another thing, why is yelling every now and again a bad thing? The criticism smacks of sexism for me, and always has – as if a woman should be seen and not heard. The Doctor can be loud and ranty every now and again and while we moan about this sometimes, we don’t ever name it as our number one reason why he shouldn’t be a main character.

4. Catherine Tate did not just learn how to act. She was quite magnificent in The Runaway Bride as well. And, strangely enough, she managed to get through that episode as without using a catchphrase as well. The fact that anyone assumed that she would be anything less than a professional actor and force RTD to turn Donna into Lauren Cooper is ridiculous at best and insulting at worst.

Donna has not had a personality overhaul. The only particular change in Donna between the beginning of TRB and the beginning of PIC is that she’s warmed to the Doctor, revamped her outlook on the world and has a new set of priorities, which make her more appealing to the audience. And of course, the brilliance of The Runaway Bride is that we get to witness this character development over the course of the episode. There is very little difference between the Donna at the end of TRB and the Donna we see again in PIC

Okay, rant over (sorry f-list, I know I’m preaching to the converted, but I needed to get it off my chest).

Comments

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

Wordy McWordy.

CT was a member of the RSC at one point. You don't get asked to work with them if you're a one note performer who only does funny voices. I've also seen her in other non-comedic roles and she's excellent.

I think that there is a change in Donna from TRB to PiC -- because it's been over a year since she saw the Doctor, she's already been through an ordeal with him once and she has changed her life around. She is a bit more quiet/contemplative because it's different circumstances! I'd say the biggest change in her (which oddly no one has commented on) is that she's gone from being ignorant and clueless to being a lot more resourceful - again, due to her past time with the Doctor.

Donna is brash. Donna is loud. Donna is her own person. She's got a different personality than Rose or Martha or Astrid. People seem to forget that Sarah Jane's first exchange with the Doctor was telling him off and saying 'I'm not the tea lady'.

And yes, it does hint at sexism, esp since Donna's "old" and "fat" and "ugly" by too many people's standards (because she's not 19, anorexic and a pop tart, apparently). If she was all of those, I guess she'd be allowed to be loud and obnoxious, right?

[meddow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, she is show to have been contemplating the Doctor, her decision and her life for quiet some time, but the way some people have been reacting to it, you would think Donna had never been contemplative on screen before - which is so very very wrong.

And I do love how resourceful she was in PIC. And incredibly Sarah Jane-esq. You're right, there are quite a lot of similarities between Donna's introduction and Sarah's introduction, and Donna's investigation of Adipose Industries reminded me so much of Sarah Jane (there's that thing going around at the moment, that Rose=Jo, Martha=Liz and Donna=Sarah, and I completely agree with it).

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

I know it's wrong. Donna was definitely contemplative which is why she chose not to travel with the Doctor at that point. He scared her and she wasn't sure she could hack it. If she had been so clueless and stupid, she'd have gone with him without considering the risks, right? It took her time to travel and experience some things on her own before she could get to the point where she wanted to go with him. *sigh*

I think the defining moment for me was when he was dealing with the Adipose machine thingee (sorry, it's 5:20 am and I can't remember the name of it) and had decided he failed and she simply said 'What do you need?' and wouldn't let go until she got a reasonable answer. She didn't shriek at him. She wasn't a nag. She just was forceful and didn't let him get away with it. Which was brilliant.

I think too many people want to turn her into a modern day Tegan which is just wrong. Tegan was an awful character because she was written and played as a shrew who only knew how to bitch, moan and be contrary. At least that's my memory of her -- I might have a better opinion of her now. But RTD is not JNT (thankfully) and can actually create 3 dimensional characters.

Oh, I hadn't see that thing but it's a fair assessment. Although I like Jo better than Rose any day and Sarah was a bit more accomplished than Donna (i.e. SJS wasn't a 40 yr old spinster who was just discovering her life -- she was always resourceful and spunky, well as much as she could be on 1975 television, and had better people skills). But it's a decent analogy nonetheless.

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

I actually see her as Tegan-esque (even though I'm way more fond of her than Tegan). My comparison isn't just about the shrieking, either. They both got pulled out of these lives they're very attached to into situations that were way too much for them at first and remained the one who could pull back from the adventure and go "there's just something very wrong with the fact that this is happening and that we're involved." They both, in arguing with the Doctor, tend to be pretty spot-on about his shortcomings. And they've both shown an ability to come through in a surprising way when least expected.

I get the Rose=New!Jo (some definite character and arc similarities), Martha=New!Liz, Donna=New!Sarah (especially with the sneaky investigative skillz) analogy, but when I thought about it, the analogy that makes more sense to me is Rose=New!Peri (coming from me, that's actually quite complimentary to Rose; I think they relate to the things they see on similar playful, regular girl sort of ways, and are young and looking for experiences and have similar rapport with the Doctor), Martha=New!Barbara (I saw this and thought it was really accurate), Donna=New!Tegan (highly complimentary to Tegan; I try to hook onto the attributes of all of them).

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

Oh! And Tegan and Donna (and Sarah, fairly, but not as explosively) put up a lot of bluster to protect their vulnerabilities.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

If she was all of those, I guess she'd be allowed to be loud and obnoxious, right?

If she was, she'd probably be "uppity" and "arrogant" like Martha. *hates on people a bit*

[meddow.livejournal.com]

People think Martha's uppity and arrogant?

*Goes off to bang her head against a hard surface*

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

There was a comment in a recent T&C entry that used those exact words. But the mods were on top of it like that, because they're awesomely oppressive towards bashers.

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

Grrr. Most of the complaints I've seen about Martha are "she can't act", "she's wooden", "she's awful" rather than anything specific about the character (except in "Human Nature/Family of Blood" where apparently she was "too passive" and "wimpy" when being treated like crap by the assorted staff -- even though had she told them off the way they deserved, she would've been tossed out on her arse and not been able to look after the Doctor/John Smith). Poor Martha couldn't win (and neither could Freema).

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

*nod*

I don't know if it's enough to know the next companion of colour will have an easier ride. I love Freema a lot, and I want her to go on and have a magnificent career, just to spite the haters.

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

I am never quite sure if it's due to her being a companion of colour or just Not-Rose or some annoying combination of both. I think any companion post-Rose would have gotten a lot of flack, except maybe someone like Carey Mulligan who would then have been accused of being just a Rose-clone.

I don't care what the haters say -- Freema is magnificent and isn't going to just disappear because they think she should. I am really hoping Martha gets to bop between DW, SJA and TW over the next few years and that Freema gets other work on top of that (which I'm sure she will). It seems as though the cast and crew adore her (despite the crap that the UK tabloids threw around) and that counts for a lot in my book.

Personally, I think Billie's massively overrated. I've seen her in a number of other things and she seemed to be exactly the same as Rose in all of them (I haven't seen Secret Diary of a Call Girl yet so can't say). I'm sure she's very nice, seems to be very much in love with her husband (who I adore as an actor), etc. but I don't see her going on to be the next Judi Dench. ;)

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I am never quite sure if it's due to her being a companion of colour or just Not-Rose or some annoying combination of both. I think any companion post-Rose would have gotten a lot of flack, except maybe someone like Carey Mulligan who would then have been accused of being just a Rose-clone.

Likewise. A lot of white, blonde women got the "Oh, I wish she was a companion, she'd be so much better than Freema" tag last year, but then, so did the girl playing Tish. I think Martha's offenses were multiple -- she was black, she was educated, she loved the Doctor, she wasn't sufficiently in awe of him. Something to offend everyone, really. Like you said, she couldn't win.

Freema is magnificent and isn't going to just disappear because they think she should.

I agree, and I hope she does get the opportunity to do non-Who things. Bryan Fuller, producer of Heroes, said fanboyish things about her, which made me happy.

Personally, I think Billie's massively overrated. I've seen her in a number of other things and she seemed to be exactly the same as Rose in all of them (I haven't seen Secret Diary of a Call Girl yet so can't say). I'm sure she's very nice, seems to be very much in love with her husband (who I adore as an actor), etc. but I don't see her going on to be the next Judi Dench.

Now, I adore Billie (I thought she was great in Secret Diary of a Call Girl, but I also thought that was a sitcom, when apparently the rest of the world thought it was meant to be a gritty, realistic look at street prostitution...), but she and Freema are totally different in their approaches. Billie, in real life and on screen, wears her heart on her sleeve, whereas Freema seems relatively reserved. I'm really, really eager to see how they work together, late in season four.

[watervole.livejournal.com]

" I think Martha's offenses were multiple -- she was black, she was educated, she loved the Doctor, she wasn't sufficiently in awe of him. Something to offend everyone, really. Like you said, she couldn't win."

I think you've just beautifully summed up all the reasons why I liked Martha! (though I don't tend to think of her as black - she's 'British' to me)

Let's hope we get to see more of Freema, both on Who and elsewhere.

[meddow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, most of the Martha bashing I've come across has been lobbed at Freema's performance. I really hope Freema's never wandered into fandom, because she's a lovely actress who did a wonderful job and I would hate to think she's read some of the stuff I've seen said about her.

[ragdoll.livejournal.com]

I have a bad feeling the poor girl might have. She was a fan of other science fiction stuff prior to Dr. Who (I just love the fact that she was so into DS9 that she and her sister went to Trek conventions -- and that she (Freema) dressed up as Dax).

I know that a lot of people on cast/crew have accounts at OG/DWF and do read alot of things even when they claim they never go on the internet (*coughDTcough*). I just hope that Freema either ignored the stupid Martha!hate threads or was able to see that the people posting them were idiots.

I have a feeling that part of the reason the Doctor is so apologetic about Martha now is that Russell figured out that the Martha fans were very very unhappy about how things played out. (And I know with absolute authority that he reads quite a lot at DWF)

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

Apparently Freema had to close down her MySpace account due to fandom, but that was because of harrassment by libidinous men, not haters.

[artic-fox.livejournal.com]

Hehe, you're brilliant. You know I already love Donna and I already have, but next time I should see someone talking down about Donna, I shall link them directly here ;P

[meddow.livejournal.com]

Well, if you ever need someone to defend Donna or The Runaway Bride, I'm always available.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Amen. I got so frustrated by all the "oh, Donna stopped screaming" reviews, too, as if people somehow missed her quiet scenes entirely. And one of the reasons why I've been so looking foward to Donna as a regular is that she and DT acted beautifully together in TRB both in terms of comedic timing and character introspection; to claim that Catherine Tate can't/couldn't act is just outrageous.

[meddow.livejournal.com]

I do wonder sometimes if the people criticizing Donna/CT actually watched TRB more than once - I can't believe people failed to notice the wonderful work CT and DT did in that episode. The rooftop scene remains one of my favourite scenes of the series in large part due to their performances and apparently that was the first scene of the episode the filmed together.

BTW, I hope you don't mind, but I friended you. Your LJ is such a wonderful read.

[selenak.livejournal.com]

Friend away, and thank you!

[watervole.livejournal.com]

I think Donna could turn out to be really good, and it is a pleasure beyond belief to see an older companion. (Us older women start to feel that we don't really exist in a TV SF world)

[alexiscartwheel.livejournal.com]

The quite contemplative Donna that we saw with her Grandfather in Partners in Crime, made two wonderful appearances in TRB.

That's one of the things that's great about Donna in TRB. She can be loud and boisterous and kind of caustic... but she's also got this really thoughtful and compassionate side. And she actually openly evaluates the Doctor's actions--rather than being in awe of him--which was something new. There's sooo much more to her than shouting.

[meddow.livejournal.com]

Exactly! And I love having a character who has those distinct facets of her personality, and Catherine Tate just seems to go between them in such a natural and fluid way.

[naushika.livejournal.com]

It's funny, because I'm one of those people who has suddenly realized Donna is awesome. I thought about it for a bit, and wondered if it was because the character had changed significantly since Runaway Bride, and I realized that no, actually, she's exactly the fucking same. And then I further realized that I never *didn't* like Donna, I was just really against the idea of her being a companion, which I think was more to do with my own "nooo I want more Martha, where is the awesome!Martha I was promised" feelings keeping me from opening up to a new companion.

But in short. I agree, I don't buy it when someone says Donna is different now, cause she's not! People just hate saying they were wrong, or that they just changed their minds. *lol*

[meddow.livejournal.com]

I remember it taking me forever to warm to Ten, partly just because he wasn't Nine. I know change is part of the show and it's how it sustains itself, but it really is a pain because you do become so attached to the old characters.

[airie-fairy.livejournal.com]

Nothing to really say to your list. =D If anything, though, I feel like she came through stronger -- the good bits included -- in TRB because that was one episode and they weren't holding back. And the amount of character she let on in PiC seemed scaled back for "she's gonna be here for the whole series, keep it measured" purposes.

However, I got good Donna stuff already. Yay! I know it's frustrating for a lot of people that she "was just doing this stuff for the Doctor," but I mean...that was a LOT of effort she put in. She honed a lot of initiative and creativity of her own, and it's...it's almost like being intrigued by the Doctor has turned out beneficially for a character, holy crap New Who! I want to see how she uses these sneaky awesome investigative skills.

Also, though this stuff came about inadvertently due to casting issues and RTD's apparent misconceptions of parent/child relationships, but it turned out well for me: We have here a woman with a broken heart courtesy of her fiance trying to kill her, a lifelong verbally abusive mother, and a recently dead father. That's some fucking spectacular character baggage, man. It makes her make so much sense already, and I hope it'll be used to good affect.

[meddow.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I got the impression that the pure force of Donna's personality was being saved up for use at a later point (this weeks episode in fact), so it can really impact.

I want to see how she uses those sneaky investigative skills as well. While I love CT and DT together, I do hope they get separated every now and again so we can see Donna be awesome.

I wouldn't call her mother verbally abusive, but it is clear Donna doesn't get the kind of support from her that she needs. And Donna does have some wonderful character baggage that I hope the writers explore - the large personality is hiding the vulnerability at her core.

[obscuruslupa.livejournal.com]

Well you've got to know how to be serious to know how to be funny, as I always say. ;)

I agree with everything you said. I quite loved Donna in The Runaway Bride and I wished she had said yes, which is why I'm so excited about season four. She was esentially the same character just in a crappy situation. Even the Doctor gets shouty when he's angry.

Also, while we're on that subject, I quite like shouty Doctor. :D

[meddow.livejournal.com]

I wished then she had said yes when watching The Runaway Bride as well. She was in an extremely crappy situation not of her own making. The Donna I think we're getting now is one a bit more okay with whatever happens because she's put herself in the situation.

[wee-warrior.livejournal.com]

(Here via a recommendation of selenak's, in case you're wondering.)

Very interesting post that got me thinking (always a good thing). I have to confess I didn't like Donna much in The Runaway Bride - nor did I like the whole Special for that matter - so seeing her in what I experienced as a toned down form in Partners in Crime was a bit of a relief. I also didn't have the feeling that the writing was intentionally making fun of her, which was something I felt was going on in RB. As you point out, though, I have indeed not rewatched RB, nor do I plan to, so it's very possible that skewers my view. You certainly raise some very good points that would support that interpretation.

I can't really comment on the yelling or Tate's acting, because I never thought that would be a problem. In fact, I didn't notice the former even in RB. I do appreciate that Donna got to tell off Ten in RB, as that did seem a point where the script took her more seriously than during the rest of the Special, and I think that does move smoothly into the characterization seen in PiC.

[meddow.livejournal.com]

It think there are some points in TRB where the writing does make fun of Donna, but overall it doesn't mock her particularly. It's interesting, because Lance does exactly what the set up of the episode had been been sort tempting the audience to do with Donna to that point: ridicule her for her narrow view of the world, and it's one of the most emotionally cruel scenes in New Who.

[calapine.livejournal.com]

I remember watching Starter For Ten and realising Quote Some Way In that James McAvoy's Mum was being played by Tate, and she was, indeed, awesome.

[meddow.livejournal.com]

She was very good in that movie - and unexpected. I had no idea she was going to be in it when I first watched it.